The Importance of Relationships

Speaker 1 Hello. Welcome back to Things Fall Apart here from the Human Restoration Project. I'm Chris. Usually, I'll be joined by Michael. Michael is currently expecting his first child as well as has a broken ankle, so he's setting this one out. But I'll try to make things work here on my own. Today, we're gonna be talking about student relationships. Obviously, we all feel like it's very important that we have relationships with our kids as teachers. I don't think anyone disagrees with that. However, why is it that someone wouldn't think that way? And is there a difference between how we view teacher student relationships through this idea of rapport versus what an authentic relationship is. I'm kinda curious to kind of explore more about what makes an authentic learning environment and is the only way to have this true relationship building to be through progressive education. So do we need to shift away from standards? Do we need to shift away from content being key in order to ensure that our children effectively learn because how can you have real relationships without transparency and without doing what's best for kids? Is it actually possible to build an authentic relationship in a place where you are no longer really in control of the systemic issues that are going on? In other words, are we just being very effective prison guards as in we're building a relationship with our inmates so that they feel valued and they listen to us and we have kind of a little trusting relationship? Or are we really empowering people so that it's no longer a prison at all? And honestly, is that even possible? So today, this topic is all going to be about relationships and how we build them. Today, we're joined by Manti Syri, a proponent of student relationships who operates a daily educational reflective blog at let'schangeeducation.com. He serves as an adjunct professor of education at Eastern Washington University, and is a high school English teacher and department chair at Cheney High School in Cheney, Washington. Thank you so much for joining me today, Monty. Yeah. Chris, I'm really excited to be here. You know, I was thrilled when you guys contacted me, so I'm honored honored and and grateful to be here with you today. Thank you so much. I I love this topic, and I think we can make a big foray into kinda thinking more about this topic beyond just saying relationships are important, which because obviously they are. The main reason why we contacted you initially is we started reading this this blog that you have and it's very interesting to us. So, you have a blog that's entitled project one eighty and endless quest for better, which is at let'schangeeducation.com, where you've tracked various topics in education and your life over basically the last, I think it's now a hundred and fifty one days out of a hundred and eighty. What were your inspirations for kind of starting this blog and what was kind of your overall goal? Yeah. So a little bit of the backstory. It kinda started off as a challenger, a dare from one of my students. We, two years ago, we were doing an independent learning project.

Speaker 2 And as we were getting going, Megan Lavin, one of my kids at the time said, well, Sy, of course, you're gonna do one too. Right? And we had to pursue something, of interest, something that we've kinda put off or never really pursued. It's something that was outside the realm of school. And I'd always wanted to to start a blog, and so I decided to make that my independent learning project. And that's kinda where, let's change education, came from. Didn't really have the idea in mind for 180, until I kinda got going. And the more I got going and the more I blogged, the more I found myself writing about the things, the conventional and traditional things Mhmm. In education that that kinda bothered me. And so I I found myself writing about those a lot. And as the year went on, I decided the next year I was gonna blog every day. And that's kind of where the first initial idea of one eighty came because out here in Washington, we have a 180 a hundred and eighty school days. And so I just decided I was in commit to writing, a blog every single day. But, of course, I also wanted to make sure that I was writing about something that was, important, I thought, in terms of of changing education. So with that, my initial goals were to Excuse me. Challenge convention and tradition in the in the status quo. And, you know, I'm unsettled, and and I find this quiet in the way things are. And the longer I've been at this, you know, twenty two years now, the more I am convinced that we embrace the status quo not for its wisdom, but its comfort. Sure. So in a sense, I'm always looking to make myself or take myself out of the conventional kinda safety zone and and take myself away from the status quo. And so I try to turn things upside down. And that's kind of where, my other thought for when it came is to flip something upside down a hundred hundred eighty degrees. And I decided I was gonna flip education upside down. But I can't just, you know, flip it on its back, leave it there. So I approach my learning a 180 degrees at a time. I imagine myself stuck in a circle, rolling along on my journey kinda chasing better. That's the idea of of endless quest to chase better. Mhmm. And that is where my mantra do reflect, do better came from. And the cycle never ends. You know, Chris? It can. I just keep chasing better. As I learn, as I fail, as I as I succeed, it's kinda my my perpetual path. And I think those of us who are willing to kinda, brave beyond, if you will, don't always have the answers, of course. It's that we're seeking the answers because we're unsettled with what has been present practice. And so, that's that's kind of, you know, my my journey. And, you know, what do I hope to accomplish? Silly as it sounds, I wanna change the world, man. Yeah. There's nothing wrong with that. That may be a bit much, but, know, let me qualify that a little bit. I wanna change worlds. You know? And and I cannot change the world, but I do believe that I can better kids' worlds by changing their educational experience in my classroom. Sure. I really believe that. And so I, you know, I'll keep on keeping on, you know, a 180 degrees at a time and and just chasing better. And and this is my second full year of of actually doing one eighty. So, you know, and I plan to do it again next year. It's just really kinda become a habit for me, and, I'm still not settled with where education is. And once we get there, which will probably be never, I'll stop. So I'll probably do it now for the rest of my career. Yeah. For sure. I I I honestly love that that dreamer aspect. I think that's something that you and I probably agree very heavily on.

Speaker 1 Cool. I mean, the world would be so so much better of a place if people just didn't fall in line and just went with whatever was out there and just kind of got depressed and kind of in like their own like little zone and they just kind of went with the flow because that's just the way it is and they just kind of stopped. Yeah. If everyone wanted to change the world, the world would change. It's it's it's pretty obvious. Absolutely. And I also love what you said too about that idea. I don't necessarily know what's wrong or sorry. I don't necessarily know what's right, but I do know what's wrong. It's not necessarily that we all have all the right answers. Of course, we don't. But if we know if something isn't correct, then why are we not working to change it? It seems very contradictory. Yeah. So out of curiosity, when you first started teaching, has this been like a gradual change for you to kind of start attacking or not attacking, but necessarily being reflective on traditional education, or is this something that you've kind of always been for and now you're just starting to reach out more so to the web world,

Speaker 2 if you will? Yeah. You know, to be honest, Chris, I I found myself kinda challenging the status quo, you know, from from the very first day. You know? And I and I have dabbled here and dabbled there along the way. And, you know, when Megan kinda challenged me to to kind of, if you will, take my vision out into the world, through my voice with my blog, it it kind of, you know, emboldened me a little bit. And, as I found that that I was speaking the language of some others out there, I realized that I'm not alone in this, and and I found hope and strength in that. So,

Speaker 1 and I and I continue to find more even, you know, crossing paths with you guys and and all the folks that I have. It's it's it's been a fantastic journey, and I'm so glad I did it. And I'm I'm so bummed I waited so long to do it. It seems like the message that you're sending out is something that many, many people can benefit from, which is part of the reason why we wanna make sure that we could share it. Yeah. So I'm curious then also, do you get any pushback or this could be positive or negative, I guess. Could you get any positive feedback from your students that I'm sure have discovered your blog because I'm sure they found you on Twitter or whatever or maybe you Oh, yeah. I don't know. And also, how does maybe your your peers or administration respond to the fact that you have this blog or do they even care?

Speaker 2 You know, they they don't seem to care. And and and, initially, Chris, when I when I first started it two years ago, I wanted them to care more. I I made a pretty bold move with with grading, and, part of it was, like, I wanted to come to the table and talk about grading. Mhmm. And so I I made a pretty bold move. I gave all my kids an a for the year no matter what. And lot of people found that crazy, but no one really wanted to engage me in, in a conversation about it because I think it would have called attention to their own grading practices. Practices. You know? And and I don't wanna go too far down that road, but but, you know, I think you know as well as I do. There's there's no manual out there that they hand to us when we enter the room that says, here. This is how this is the best and most effective and fair way to grade kids. We're just making this step up as we go along. And so I thought, you know what? To get folks' attention, I'm really gonna make it up. And I'm gonna give every single kid an a, and I am going to focus on learning this year. I'm gonna take grades completely off the table, and I'm gonna write about it for an entire year. And that's really where Project one eighty got started, and it was the best experience I've ever had. You know? And and I got a lot out of my kids, and I invited my administration in. They knew what I was doing, the superintendent. I had school board members, kids in class, and it it was fantastic. But but I'll be honest, Chris. I I was hoping for a little more pushback so we could have a serious come to the table converse conversation about grading practices.

Speaker 1 Yeah. It's it's very interesting to me. It seems like the more you push against the state or the more that you push against these outdated practices as you as you just said, the more people actually seem to enjoy what you're doing and don't question the fact that what you're doing is exactly the opposite of what they're telling you to do. Right. Michael and I all the time, we're in Ohio, so we have the Ohio Department of Education come out and see what we're doing. Like, man, this is all fantastic. It's like, you guys realize this is the complete opposite of every single thing that you're laying out for us to do. And it sounds a lot like what you're doing in in your own classroom. It's like this idea, like, let's just throw out all grades so the superintendent can come and say, look at how great everything is. It's just Yeah. It's it's it's so bizarre. It is. It really is. Yeah. So, Monty, one thing I I really want to focus on, even though I god. I would love to talk to you about the great aspect of it too. A topic that we always, wanna talk about is developing relationships with our students. I don't think there is an educator alive who's a good educator who does not believe that relationship's the most important thing in education. It it's it's bar none the most important thing. And all the different practices that we take place in our classroom feed into that relationship outside of, obviously, like, just talking to your kids. So the question I have for you is not necessarily why relationships are important because I think most people, especially those that would be listening to this podcast, would know that relationships are important. So the question I have is, why would someone not think that they're important? And then kind of expand on that. A lot of times, I feel like in teacher training programs or whenever I read a book about education, they talk a lot about building rapport. They talk about building rapport with your students.

Speaker 2 And Right. Right. For some reason,

Speaker 1 that I feel like that's disconnected from just the idea of building a relationship. And I don't know if that's because they still wanna have this this power, like, this power differential where it's, well, I'm the teacher, they're the student, so it's not really a relationship. We're not really friends. It's just rapport. But the same as I talk Right. I also wonder if rapport doesn't also lend itself to, like, a tips and tricks style of this is not to disparage you as people that do this because I I have no problem with this, but it's like I give my kids high fives every single day when they walk into the room because I want them to have a positive learning experience. There's nothing wrong with that and I'm I'm perfectly cool with that. But at the same time, I I wonder if there aren't teachers out there that are constantly thinking I I don't know if you play computer games. I'll make a video game reference here. But in the Sims, they have this thing. You, like, give, like, a high five to someone. You get relationship points with them. And part of the game is you wanna build up your relationship points very high so that you're friends with each other. It's not necessarily that you care about being friends with them. It's more just you wanna get your points up so that you they feel like they're your friend. I I don't know if that that line of thought makes much sense. Yeah. You know, Chris, I I love this question. And I have as I I have a long messy answer to it. And I think it's dealing with with specifically what you were just talking about. And so here we go.

Speaker 2 I, with you, don't think it's the teachers think that relationships are important. I think most if you said, hey. Are relationships with your kids important in your classroom? They would say yes. Mhmm. And I and I think they would even go further to say that they have them with their students. But Sure. I don't see that relationships are universal emphasis in the classroom. I don't see that they're an intentional focus, but I believe they have to be. I think relationships real relationships have to be intentional. I don't think they're accidental. I don't think they're a Sims game where you rack up points by giving kids high fives. Not that there's anything wrong with giving kids high fives. I believe in that. I'm more of a fist pump guy, but there's more to it than just there's more to it than just that. So I think then we teachers claim that relationships are important, or when we have teachers who claim that they're important, we have kind of have a case of talking versus walking. And to be frank, I think we have too many teachers who talk and too few who walk, especially as the year gets on. I think we have a lot of what I call icebreaker teachers out there, one to make relationships a priority for the first few days of the year, utilizing bright icebreaker activities, etcetera, but they soon move on, and what was a priority seems to to kinda become an afterthought. And the ice, if you will, returns. And I and I think there's a reason for that, and I think it stems from the terminology that we use. And you kinda touched on this a little bit. Student teacher relationships. Mhmm. Student teacher division, not connection, artificial, not real. And I believe that's part of the problem. Real or imagined, you know, we we, teachers and students, exist in a divide, and I think it's an unnecessary divide. Of course, there is some natural necessity in the divide. I mean, I think there has to be some separation. There has to be some boundaries. I'm not suggesting that we don't need a degree of division. After all, we all we are the adults in the room. I am simply suggesting that the divide does not have to be as wide as we make it. We've been cast into roles, I think. I think, teachers and students. And there are perceptions that have typecasted us. And as such, we think we have to be a certain way. And I think that's so important. We think we have to be a certain way. And, again, it's kinda going back to this is how it's always been done. This is what I'm comfortable with. This is convention. This is tradition. This is status quo. And so we've kinda fallen into line, I believe. And while those perceptions present the ways in kinda various slides from strict to moderate to lenient, at least as a broad stroke, I think there's a settled middle, if you will, that becomes the default which creates a scripted source that when played out presents kind of a transactional experience between teachers and students. Mhmm. And I think for the most part, sadly, we accept that. It's how it's always been done, and and that's it. It's kinda become the basic formula for our existence in the, in the classroom. You know, teachers teach and students student. But in that separateness, it's created a dynamic that divides, and there's no shared ownership or or responsibility, I think. Teachers stick to the script, afraid or unwilling to deviate from that which is accepted. And it's not that much different for our students as they have become conditioned to to accept and endure, and I really do think endure in some cases are roles. And and the show goes on and on and on. You know? And and we add the opportune times and try to make our legs less frozen, if you will. But But I think we fall back into routines, and we make transactions and not connections. Again, especially as the year goes on and and we become stressed out about state testing and other things, you know, it's if we fall back to that rut that routine and and that default. But I think we have to make connections, and and I think we can make connections. I think we can deviate from the script. And I think it can be as simple as reframing our interpretations of those roles. If we can imagine our roles, not as teacher and student, but simply as people join in an opportunity to experience life and learning, then we change the story. And as the story changes, I think so do our roles. You know, our experience then is not centered on the artificial transactions that are so presently pervasive in school. Rather, it is centered on the struggle and triumph of growth, you know, human growth, growing together as humans. And isn't that what it's about? I mean, isn't that what connects us? You know, we're all growing as a secure as a human, I struggle and succeed every single day. And I probably struggle more than succeed if I'm honest. As students, as humans, my kids struggle and succeed every day. And so why do I have to pretend that because I have the word teacher on my dressing room door that I am really any different than they who have students on theirs? I am no different, so I no longer pretend. I no longer play that role. We are not in separate rooms. We are in one room, one beautiful, complex, messy, connected room where the human story goes on every single day. And, ultimately, we're just connected. And I think that if we can get beyond that traditional student teacher relationship and just think, you know, we're human sharing space and sharing life, I think we can make a difference.

Speaker 1 Yeah. You're you're speaking to my heartstrings. I I love that emphatic response. You're you're hitting the nail on the head on every single point for me. I gotta I love your your verbiage as well. As you just said, as teachers move into the classroom, they spend if you're amazing at your job, maybe three days because how could you possibly go away from teaching all of that content that you need to teach for the test if you spend three days doing icebreaker activities? But then Right. We'll never address those things again. What it makes me think of is a very common teaching practice is passing out note cards to all your kids where they write down like, what do you wanna be when you grow up? What's like your favorite song? Rather than that being used for a way to really get to know your students, typically that is just a day one activity to learn what their names are. Well, that person likes this band, so I'm gonna remember their name a little bit easier. It doesn't actually serve Yep. Any teaching purpose outside of that notion. And kids know that too. Like, kids kids know Absolutely, they know. That this teacher is going to be like this. They're this kind of teacher. In many ways, they are just pretending to like me or they're pretending to get on my side because they want me to learn the content at the end of the day. And kind of I think what you're alluding to, it's gonna build into another one of these questions, is building relationships isn't necessarily just about being friendly with kids and getting to know them better. We that's assumed. But a lot of it is standing up for your kids and empathizing with the situation that they're in and making sure that your classroom is one that values them as human beings and is not just a classroom that knows that they are human beings, but at same time, they have to get the coursework done. Absolutely. As a result, the relationships will naturally be lost in a classroom where the learning is just robotic. It's no longer human. The idea of memorizing a bunch of outdated information or being gauged and competing against others based off of scores or to, just walk into a room realistically against your will. You have to be there, and be forced to eat your your peas and carrots, so to speak. Right. Right. Someone who is just some dude or just some gal, whoever, you know. They don't really know who you are. You're you're just in the building. It's not like they had any choice in most of this matter. It becomes very difficult to build an authentic relationship there when you can't empathize and

Speaker 2 actually change something about it. Well, no. And I and I think once kids realize that we're we're genuinely empathizing with them, you know, I'm not just breaking the ice, you know, in the first few days of the year, we we move from a place of compliance to commitment. You know, the kids see that, hey. We're there for them. You know, and it's like and I think, like you said, we'll kinda get into this answer a little later on, but, you know, that empathy piece is is is absolutely huge.

Speaker 1 Hey there. We hope you're enjoying the podcast. The Human Restoration Project stays alive because of generous donations by our patrons. Take a second and check out our website at humanrestorationproject.org for more podcasts, our blog, and all sorts of free resources that we've designed for educators. And if you love what we do, consider supporting us on Patreon. For as little as $1 a month, Patreon supporters receive goodies from being listed in the credits of our resources to early access to what we do. Thanks in advance. The reason why Michael and I started the Human Restoration Project is literally what you're talking about right now. It's it's on the nose. Well, one, we like sci fi. But two, Human Restoration Project is the idea of restoring humanity. It's the idea of literally bringing humans back into education. So we're we're looking at students, teachers, parents, administration, the community. It doesn't really matter who it is. As people, we're not data. We're not robots. We're not industrial tools, which is sadly how the people that really invented this style of education thought of people back in the late eighteen hundreds. They wanted assembly line workers. They didn't care at all about who these people were. So

Speaker 2 what steps do you think would need to be taken then if we're going to move towards an education that's more human? What what would we need to do? Yeah. You ended that question with, you know, at least what you what you wrote here to me, you know, to, what steps do you believe that school should take to embrace humanity and education? Embrace humanity and education. I love that. I love that ideal, and I think we can make it a reality, and and and I have a thought for that. Bear with me here. If the quality of our lives is determined by how we feel, feelings then govern the lives we live. But we do not live life alone. Our lives bring us into contact with others, and others affect how we feel. They hold that power, But others have feelings too, and we hold that power. We all then have power. We all we have power in people's lives. We impact the quality of their lives. So we should consider others' feelings. When we consider others' feelings, we create empathy. Empathy connects. Connections create humanity. If we aren't connected, we are without humanity. We are lost. And when we are lost, we are nowhere. But I think we can get unlost. I've already spoken of the divide that happens when we fail to make connections. So then how do we succeed in making connections? In each other. We have to connect with each other. And I know this may sound Pollyannish. I get that. But the connection rests in what makes us more human than anything, feelings. Here's how I do it in my classroom. I begin with a simple question. How do I want students to feel in my classroom? I am in control of that. I cannot always control outside factors, but I can't control how people feel in my room. I have that autonomy. I have that power. That power. Isn't that crazy? I have the power to build. I have the power to destroy. I can make a day. I can ruin a day, and that's scary. That responsibility to me is terrifying. And so from that place, I consider carefully how I want to use that power, how I want to make students feel in my classroom. Here's my list of six that I present to my kids. In my room, I want you to feel empowered, connected, valued, respected, challenged, and supported. These are my standards. I choose them. I consider them, and I do my best to honor them. Every decision I make from how I interact with my kids to how I instruct to how I assess starts from here. And to hold myself to account, I ask my kids how I'm doing. I make it public. I make it personal. If I want a kid to feel supported and she tells me that she does not feel supported, I take that personally. And so I ask and the kids tell. And when I have found that I have lived had not lived up to my standards, I do my best to do better. And that I believe is the starting point for embracing humanity in education.

Speaker 1 Yeah. That that empathy piece is so key. I'm I'm gonna take a cynical approach here for a second. I don't disagree with anything that you're saying, but I'm curious on how you would respond to someone that would say this because I've I've been told this before by, sadly, fellow teachers. Okay. What about someone that comes up to you and says, yeah, but they are just kids, so they don't really know what they need. You have to tell them what they need, and they need a lot of the stuff that you're gonna give them. So, I mean, at the end of the day, shouldn't you just kinda be in charge? That kind of response. You know, and and I've had similar, instances where where people have done that, you know, and and kind of on top of that, I've had the, you know, how are you preparing them for the real world, right, which which

Speaker 2 drives me absolutely bonkers, you know, because I think the kids' world feel pretty real to them already. Yeah. But, anyway, you know, I I would ask them, I think, Chris, in this particular context, you know, I would ask them, well, how do you want kids to feel in your room? And I think it would be interesting to see what their their list was, and then it would be interesting to kinda hear from them then how they go about making those things happen for their kids. You know? You know, I and I I think it would be interesting for them to kind the the teacher in particular to look and and see, you know, where they're centered and and what they're really looking for in their kids. I think for some of those teachers, the ones who really do own that idea of we have to teach the kids and we have to prepare them for the real world would have a difficult time coming up with with the list. I'm not saying it's impossible, but, I think the difference between them, if we can categorize them as them and and and us, if you will, though I I don't necessarily like that dichotomy, but it exists, I think, is that we think hard and long about the decisions we make in our classrooms with our kids. We don't take it necessarily just straight from the state standards. We don't necessarily take it from our textbook. You know, we take it from our interactions with our kids. I can't teach a kid until I know a kid is what I would suggest to those people, and I work really hard to get to know my kids. Oh, I can deliver content. Anybody can deliver content. You know? Mhmm. And, of course, there are degrees of doing that more expert you know, with with greater expertise or not. But I think it takes a great teacher, if you will, to connect with kids and meet them where they are and to take them where they want to go. And that doesn't always happen with that teacher who believes that they have to you know, I I think we could think about kids in a couple of ways. You know? If we think that they're empty empty canvases to be filled, you know, that's one way. But I like to think of them as works to be appreciated. And I wanna learn those works and add to those works, not just fill those works. And I feel like on the other side of that sometimes, those teachers feel it's their responsibility, their job to fill that that that blank canvas. And Yeah. You know, I may have thought that once upon a time in my career, but I don't think that any longer. You know? Mhmm. I I just think kids are someone are are are people to be appreciated and learn from and learn with. You know? So I don't know if I really answered your question, but, you know, I don't know. Those people those people are always, interesting to me who who kind of push and persist to to, put kids in their place, if you will. Yeah. That's my used to be to be to be, completely opposite to that, especially in the last, you know, the last ten years of my career. The point that you brought up about that idea of

Speaker 1 what would we ask an educator who thinks like that, what would they want their students to be reminds me of, Alfie Cohn opens up a lot of his parenting talks with this idea of he asked the entire audience what it is they want their children or anyone's children to be when they grow up. And they raise their hands, and they typically say like, well, want want them to be happy. I want them to get married, have kids. Like, bunch of, like, traditional stuff like that or Sure. I want them to travel the world, whatever. They wanna live up to their aspirations. And then he brings up the fact that in school, we actually don't empathize any of those things. I find it very odd that whenever you look at a vision statement to a school, vision statements, I I have not yet to find one that says just make kids happy. There there is nothing. It's always preparing them for the future, which is it's like almost like a trigger word for me. I I hate I hate that phrase. Preparing them for the real world's one. Preparing them for the future is another one. First off, if we were gonna prepare kids for the real world, we wouldn't be doing half the things that we're doing in school right now. The the idea like, this might be I don't know. I kinda go back and forth in this in my head. But sometimes I think to myself, I I teach history and government. Michael teaches English. We talk a lot about why do we even have kids writing academic papers if they're not going into academia? Shouldn't we be teaching them how to write a blog or how to post on Twitter? Because in the real world, that is actually something that you do with writing. Most people don't go on to write five page paragraph essays. One part of that is the idea that we aren't really preparing kids for the real world to begin with. So the idea that they're not going to be successful in the real world because we're not teaching those standards that we have right now doesn't make any sense. It doesn't equate to me. The second part though of that that that bothers me a lot is if we're going to prepare kids for the future, then we're definitely not doing that with our current standards. First off, you have no idea what the future holds. So there's absolutely no way that you could give someone a set of standards that is content based that could prepare someone for the future. Right now, we're trying to go for this, like, coding initiative, like, teach everyone coding, which is great if you wanna teach kids learn how to code, I'm fine with it. But to say that that's going to prepare them for the future to me is incredibly outdated because by the time those kids graduate, first off, the majority of people don't actually code. Most people use code that other people already write. So it's a very actual small field in the greater scheme of technology. If you're gonna have to prepare kids for the future, we would have to be predicting like people that can mess with AI algorithms that can that can Right. Like things of that nature. And we can't really predict that. So instead, a step that we could take in order to be really future prepared would be teaching kids basic skills that they need in order to tackle these objectives like how do you work with others to overcome a problem or how do you do you fail well is a huge one. How do how can you be faced with adversity? How can you get to a point where you no longer feel like you can do something or you you bomb something and it's not the end of the world? That's completely normal to be like that. I I I can't tell you how many times I've been in my classroom where a kid has not succeeded at something. I've been like, yeah. Okay. Let's let's keep going. It's all good. And they're just confused by that. Or a Oh, parent a parent is definitely confused by that. Oh, yeah. That notion of we're preparing kids for the future or even we're preparing them for real life is not present in sadly the majority of classrooms. And I think that the I don't wanna say average teacher because I don't like to make over broad generalizations, but I can say with my experience of working with teachers, I would say the majority of them don't seem to understand yet that content is not more important than just learning. Like, the content, your classroom area is not more important than relationships and learning of soft skills. Absolutely. And, realistically, you could cut down your content to 25% of it is white right now and just make it thematic and still get the same outcome content wise in term of in terms of remembering it, while still building all these other really important things that we should have. Agree with that whole hearse thing. Here's a good question to kinda branch off of that, which would be how do we balance between the fact that, yes, we believe that skills, relationships, empathy, all these things are obviously way more important than content. However, that being said, the state does care about content. At the end of the day, quote unquote, there is Yep. A standardized test that measures, sadly, our performance, at least according to them. And a lot of times, state funding is attached to those standardized tests. If you don't do well on those, the community might not respect you as much. There's still a lot of work to be done in terms of spreading these ideas, let alone to teachers, but to parents and the community. Right. Parents often brag about, like, their school has a excellence with distinction or whatever banner hangs up in the gym about how great they are at having kids attend school and do well on tests. So Right. Right. I'm gonna refer to a blog that you wrote. It was a poem actually. You wrote this poem on shame. And you talked about how you felt shame because you couldn't really stand up against the standardized testing system because in your view and in mine as well, the standardized testing system measures the means students. So do you think there's a way that you can reconcile having positive relationships with students while still practicing traditional methods that have proven negative consequences for them. So, I mean, like, giving out grades, which you've already said you give out all a's, so we can kind of, I guess, scratch that one off. But there's also things like standardized testing, zero tolerance policies. I don't know what your school has in terms of those. But but there's just these different policies that exist that are kind of hard to get away with just as a teacher. You're in an administrative position, you can do a little bit more, but, I'm just curious about your thoughts on that.

Speaker 2 Yeah. Boy, this is a hard question, but I but I have some thoughts for sure. You know, that that morning's post kinda found where I wrote the poem kinda found me at a tough place where I was having my own troubles with reconciling what goes on in the classroom and what goes on without. You know? And there are things without that I cannot or or have not learned to fully control. You know? And the one line that really, mattered to me most there, from the poem, the one short stanza that was, but then why, Cy? Why weren't you brave? Why didn't you from this us save? And for me a little bit, I felt like I was, you know, selling my kids out and selling myself out a little bit. And and I think that that's why I was having such a hard time that morning, you know, because I go all year long telling the kids, like, they matter. We hope you're enjoying the podcast.

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Speaker 2 to early access what we do. That's your response in advance. Stop stop short of saying that. But I would argue that it's terribly difficult to subscribe to the traditions and conventions of ed, especially those that carry negative consequences, grading comes to mind, and have real relationships, which I think extends beyond positive. You know, I think a lot of teachers think they have positive relationships with their kids, and that's great. But, I sometimes feel like positive is the absence of negative in that regard. And and for me, that's just not enough, if that makes sense. Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. You know, I I I think then where things get complicated is when teachers and students meet at the crossroads of possible and impossible. In my experience, for most things, it comes down to the choice of the teacher. For example, many teachers do not allow kids to take, retake assessments, take late work, etcetera, claiming it's not possible, it's not fair, and the list goes on. But I I I I think differently. I think it is most certainly possible. I think we can make those decisions in our classrooms. I think we have to make those decisions in our classrooms in spite of of, you know, what's what's on the outside. You know, if learning and growth are paramount, I can think of no reason not to give kids another go. And, you know, why wouldn't we? It's it's a part of learning. And when we, out of one side of our mouths, tell kids to embrace failure and mistakes. You know, when you're talking about this earlier, maybe think of this, and have growth mindset and that the struggle is real. And then out the other side of our mouths, we tell them, sorry. You get one shot. I think that that creates distrust, and trust is a must for relationships. You know? And I think, you know, in in a sense, that kind of encapsulates all the things that are outside my classroom that I can't control where it creates this this, this conflict, if you will. And and I think sometimes within that conflict, it's hard to reconcile things. But I still argue that as classroom teachers, you know, we have a great deal of autonomy, and I think we can, you know, for a lack of a better way way to say it, kind of go rogue in our classrooms and do the things that matters, you know, despite some of the pressures, from the outside. You know? This this in Washington state, at least, you know, this movement started fifteen or or sixteen years ago, and I've yet to see the black helicopters kinda swoop in and and and go to school. You know? And and, again, this is happening differently in different states, but, you know, part of me I was thinking about this earlier today. Part of me just wants, like, an entire class, like, the entire sophomore class to say, you know what? We're not taking the test this year. You know? And and to see what the see what the state and the school would really do. I mean, they're they're really not gonna graduate that many kids. You know? I don't know. I I think short of that, Chris, some kind of, you know, revolution. I just think we're gonna be having this conversation about how do we reconcile this. But, I think as teachers, if if you try to say that you can't make kid centered decisions in your classroom because of the things that are on the outside, I I don't think you're telling the whole story to kids. I think that that presents itself eventually, and I think that affects the relationships, you know, that we have with our kiddos. You know, the whole growth mindset thing drives me crazy. I mean, I think it's a wonderful idea, and I work on it with my kids. But, you know, you teach high school you teach high school. Right? Yes. Yep. Yes. And and so does Michael. And so, you know, by the time the kids get to us, they have fixed mindsets. You know? Mhmm. I'm sure Michael has the, you know, kids hate reading or kids hate writing, and I don't know exactly where they would fall with you. You know? But they they learned that. They didn't enter school hating reading. Right? And they learned that, and they got that fixed mindset. And so it's really hard for us to to help them move beyond that by the time they get to us. But I think we can do it, and I think we have to do it by making things possible. You know? I it's a choice, and I believe in possibility, and I choose possibility. And I think in my experience, it makes all the difference. And as far as the standardized testing goes, and I even wrote it in the palm a little bit. Let's let's just do our best to spite them. And, you know, my kids are already off to a good start. I'm getting scores back, and they've done well. And, you know, but, again, that kinda goes back to my if I win, I lose. If I lose, I win situation, that I wrote about on on Friday. You know? And and I don't know. The whole thing just just drives me absolute absolutely bonkers.

Speaker 1 I'm curious about your thoughts on this. So we actually well, I I wrote something. I think this is the last week or maybe it was a couple weeks ago and it was basically this idea about teaching to get fired. This idea that you shouldn't sacrifice your principles that you know are correct just because you want to be safe in your employment. Yeah. Depending on where you're teaching, some schools are not going to be okay with you even just not teaching the worksheets that they give you for that day. I mean, are schools around here in Columbus that have not only standardized content, but standardized material. As in you're expected to go in that day, teach that exact lesson and hand it out to everyone and just do it. And that's what you do every single day. And that school that is kind of famous or infamous for that around here also has the highest state test scores in the state of Ohio. Sure. Sure. For them, that feels like a major accomplishment and it's almost prestigious actually for teachers to go there. However, obviously, we're not seeing those kids to go on do great amazing things. Obviously, some of them do but I don't think they're correlated. I don't either. So the the question I I have for you, I guess this is twofold. One would be, do you think that teachers should be seeking out employment opportunities that kind of embrace them as progressive educators or do you think it's enough or if it's a good strategy to try to stay where they're at and kind of help students as much as they can? Basically, if they make more of a change if they were to kind of form a tribe, if you will Yeah. Or would they make more of a change just trying to do their best with what they're given?

Speaker 2 Well, I think that's a great question. You know, course, I would wanna be be surrounded about, surrounded by like minded progressive, educators. But I think, if I'm honest, I would rather be in a place where I'm causing a disruption, if you will, to to the status quo. I feel like I just think, Chris, we can make more of a difference here. I'm afraid that we'd go off and we'd just create our own little island, and I worry about all kids who would be unable to visit our islands, if you will Sure. And what they would be what they would be left to. And so while that is appealing to me, I I feel like, you know, it's kinda my calling to be that one who's kinda fighting against the status quo. And, you know, it's really interesting that you you said something about, like, teaching to to not get fired or or, you know, what whatever you wrote about, here just recently. I've been thinking about that a lot. You know? I've got twenty two years of stellar recommend evaluations. You know? And and I think about these these moments as I move ahead and as I do more, risky, you know, revolutionary things. It's like, I don't think they're gonna fire me. You know? Mhmm. And I'm not gonna I'm not gonna look to get fired, but I I feel you know, you said something that resonated with me. It's like like, we have to be true to our principles. And, you know, I've taught tenth grade out here for for for fifteen years, since I've been back here, at Cheney. And I and tenth grade is the where the kids have to pass the state assessment. And I just begun to wonder. It's like, do they really want me to be the guy who's teaching the majority of the kids? I mean, we've always had great test scores, but I just don't believe in it anymore. You know, I used to try to sell it when I was younger and didn't know better, and I and I kinda just latched onto this idea that it's our kid's reality, and so I'm gonna help them with that reality as best I can. But I no longer want it to be the reality. You know? I wanna fight against that. You know? And and that's, again, kinda putting me in that hard place where I reconcile that. And, you know, I don't know. It'll be interesting, to see to see where we're going if I stay at tenth grade. I'm just not sure that the district you know? Because our you know you know as well as I do. Our our scores get published in the paper. You know? In Washington, they go on our school report card. You know? They're at the center of our our professional learning community work. I mean, yes, we look to multiple majors, but you know as well as I do at the end of the day, the the the data that's gonna matter most is the state testing data. You know? And and I feel like I should be able to challenge that with the data that I have collected from my classroom, you know, when and if a kid finds himself in a position where maybe he didn't pass the state assessment, but yet in my classroom, I have have deemed that his work is is is worthy of meeting standard and and and moving on. You know? Sure. But I don't think we get that opportunity, and I think we pay a lot of lip service to all these multiple majors. But at the end of the day, he gets funneled down to the to the state assessment, you know, which I think is unfortunate. Yeah. It's also So, you know, I'm I'm gonna I'm gonna stay in disruptive the the the public school, I think. Sure. Yeah. That would be the path I would choose, though I would love to be around like minded progressives. So I think so I mean, I teach American history,

Speaker 1 for half of the year. They were semester based. And I probably reach on a good year 50% of the content. We hit the other 50% pretty well. And Yeah. Our students actually perform not that I care, but they do perform better on the standardized test and we're not taking in the best and brightest kids. We're taking in anyone who wants to come. So Right. Right. It's I I don't even know and and, actually, there's research that shows this. Doubling down on preparing for these standardized tests doesn't actually even increase necessarily their learning capability to do these state tests because logical reasoning or whatever skill is being assessed by these standardized tests is something that's more about just being able to read and write very well. Right. And a lot of that comes down not necessarily to what the school is doing, but it comes down to, I guess, more to your zip code. It's down to what resources you had available to you when you were younger. It comes down to do you have a supportive household at home? Do you have enough money to get by? Like, are you stressed out about other things? Yeah. There's so many other things that that kind of build into this. And conversely, if you're a student that is very well off, lot of times, those are the students that are pressured to get higher grades and actually don't critically think as much. There's a reason why a lot of business owners tend to be from the lower to middle class because those are the people that tend to have the kind of the perfect balance between structure and unstructure. Right. Right. So let's move on to a different question. This is something that that relates, but I I'm really curious about this one because I have a lot of stories. Do you ever find that other staff at your school or if you don't wanna trash talk your your peers, maybe at a conference you've been to, wherever you've been, that people have kind of distanced themselves from you or labeled you because of how you believe about student relationships or progressive education. So something that I hear a lot is, oh, you're the the easy teacher or the weird teacher. You're, like, the really out there, quote unquote, creative teacher. So therefore, you know, maybe students tend to hang out in your room. Maybe they wanna be there at lunch. Maybe you're the ones the first one that they say something's wrong and like you talk to the guidance counselor and people are like Yeah. Is that guy talking to this kid so much? That kind of thing. Do you ever find yourself in that situation? Like, you ever painted as like the like the the weird guy, if you will? Every day for twenty two years. Alright.

Speaker 2 Yeah. Well, you know, it's it's a sticky question. Yeah. I have been that guy. I am that guy. And I suspect, you know, Chris, I'll be that guy always. You know? And for me, it's like, I run the full gamut, I think, from, you know, annoyance to people feeling like that to, you know, suspecting, on on some level that's maybe it's professional jealousy or, you know, whatever. I I don't know. I mean, who who knows where where those folks are always coming from? But, you know, at the end of the day, I believe in what I'm doing, and so much so that that I have a literally an open door policy. You know, I never teach with my door closed. I have nothing to hide. And yet I lot of these teachers who criticize me tend to be the ones who close their door. And I'm not saying that every teacher who closes his door is is hiding something. But, man, I'm an open book. And, you know, I invite parents to my class. I invite other teachers to my class. I just want somebody to come, you know, sit sit in a desk in my room for a day, for a week. And, you know, before you decide whether I'm the easy teacher, before you, you know, unfairly, come up with a reason for why the kids like me, there's a reason like me. I work really hard to get to know them and, to establish relationships with them. And what I have with them is is real. And and, you know, what's interesting about that is that I don't have exclusive rights to that. Every teacher can do that. You know? Mhmm. And so I've always found it funny that those who those who criticize my having a relationship with kids, I mean, they can do the exact same stuff, you know, and and have those relationships and those connections with their kids. But for some reason, they choose not to. And, you know, I I'm not sure why. And and I kind of wear I kind of wear being the the the weird guy, the the, you know, the the guy who's always kinda pushing the edges is is a little bit of a badge of honor. You know? Yeah. If if if people were saying, well, he's falling in line, and he's conforming, and he's doing things as I do, that's just not who I am. You know? Wouldn't feel like I was being true to myself. So when I hear you know, and the kids talk to me. You know, they tell me what do the teachers say about me and and and, in our class and stuff. You know, if they weren't saying something, then I'd be worried. So I I embrace it. I kinda got to the point where I embrace it. You know? It's like, thank you. You know? And and I don't think we need to turn it into a and I'm I know you're not suggesting this, but, like, you even said, like, how can we change this into more of a positive behavior? And I just think we have to we have to work with each other. You know? And I think there's something to be gained from those those of us who are out here on the edge. You know? And I think it's unfortunate that that more people

Speaker 1 aren't aren't drawn or or aren't drawn to that. I think it's really bad. So I feel personally, like, it's usually one the the major thing that I see more so than not is that it's teachers that went into education not to educate, but because they really like their content. And there's definitely something to be said about someone who's very passionate about their subject and they inspire people to to do that subject, etcetera. However, I hesitate saying this, but I sometimes feel like teachers that are incredibly passionate about their subject area are more about themselves and less about their students. Yeah. As in, I'm at the center of the room. I'm I'm very amazing at math. Look at all these crazy things I can teach. I wanna inspire you to follow me, which is a great talent to have, but at same time, is that something that we necessarily need for high school or is there something that we need for a college professor where you're choosing to take that class and that's something you wanna learn more about? And I'm not I that's not to disparage against like I I know that someone's like read like teach like a pirate. That is a major theme of that book. It's all about passion and dedication. That sometimes I feel like teachers that focus so much on delivering their content very well miss the fact that it's really not about the content. I've said it before like we've said it before like at least like five times during this discussion. Content doesn't come first. Content is something that comes later on once a student actually trusts you and you're expected to have a student trust you to actually deliver them real information in a very short period of time Right. Relative to the the grand scheme of their lives. So this idea that we're going to inspire someone to become a great reader or writer seems like it's not going to hit as many students if we're just super passionate about writing as if, as much as if we were to just talk to all of them, get to know them, be very friendly, teach empathetically towards them so that we understand where they're coming from. We try to integrate them writing and reading for example into their lives and show it how they can help them and they'll probably be more inspired that way I would assume. Absolutely. I mean it it's all about more just what's the best way to possibly educate people not what is the content that I'm obsessed with. And typically to me, the question to ask is why did you become a teacher and you give them the choice between content or education. Any teacher that says content, sadly, might have chosen the wrong field. And I I don't like to tell people like you can't do something because that would be, very authoritative and beyond my pay grade nor, my place. However Right. That being said, someone who is purely focused on content and education, I don't feel like will ever be happy. They may as well just become a professor and then we could mean, god, we could even get into the fact that possibly professors need to change the way that they're teaching as well to people that are in their classrooms in higher ed but that's higher ed is a whole other beast. I don't even Yeah. Don't even wanna get get close to close to that world because that's a that's a that's a giant one. We got a five hour podcast just on that. So for for time purposes, let's let's build right into this one because this might be a might be a long one depending on where where we're at. So Okay. The final question I'm about to ask you is a question we've asked every single guest, think, unless we missed one. What is one step that you think that teachers, administrators, or a school in general could feasibly take tomorrow? So obviously, get rid of standardized testing would be an unfeasible suggestion. Right. It's something that really, like, everyone or one person could do to feasibly improve tomorrow, the lives of their students?

Speaker 2 I have two, Chris. And and and there's something literally that that I think anyone can do tomorrow. So for all, I think we I think they should ask how they want people to feel in their classroom, in their building, or in their district. I think they should make a list, and I think they should start basing their decisions from there. You know, if you think back to my, my list that I gave you for what I what I share with my kids, you know, it would really be no different for a school perhaps to say, I want kids in the school to feel empowered. I want them to feel connected, valued, respected, challenged, and supported. And imagine you know, I'm not a big fan of of mission statements either, But imagine if that was your touchstone, if that was your your standard that you set for yourself as I do in my classroom. You know? And so now when you're having a discussion with the kid maybe about misbehavior, you know, and and we're all in agreement that in this building here, we want kids we want people to feel respected. That's that's where you begin that conversation. Sure. You know? And so I just think there's there's no there's nothing magic there. It's just about asking the question about how you want kids to feel. I mean, I think it could go beyond that. I think could go to to community, to town, to city, to state. I just think that it's just a way for us to connect on a human level, and I think anybody and everybody can do it. Yeah. And then for teachers, you know, and I thought maybe we'd talk about this earlier, but we didn't. So I do something that's called smiles and frowns. I begin every period, every day with it. And we take five minutes, and we go around the room, and we share a smile and or a frown. Kids always have the right to pass, of course. But, you know, I've done it now for a hundred forty three days. I will I will continue to do it. And for me, it's been the very best instructional, maybe classroom decision I have ever made. You know? We'll learn a lot. We've learned a lot of things this year, but I think the most important thing we've learned is each other. My kids love it. You know, they they hold me accountable. Even when I have a sub in the room, they do it on their own because it's a way that that we we connect. And so, I just think it's a great way for for any teacher to start a a period, and I'm never not gonna do it. I'm gonna do it for the rest of my career.

Speaker 1 So could you elaborate more on what what that is?

Speaker 2 Yeah. So, we just call it smiles and crowns. Up on my board, I put, today, I want you to feel connected, and I put smiles and crowns next to that. And so, we just go around the room and each kid shares. So a kid might say, you know, I aced the math test today, or I scored a goal in soccer last night, or, my dog passed away last evening. You know? And so they're just sharing something from their lives that either has made them smile or happy or has been a positive or maybe a frown, something that's that's made them sad, something that's that's bummed them out. You know, a frown. They just failed the math test, the the the period before, and or I failed the science test, and everything that he told us was that he taught us wasn't on the test. I mean, you know, those situations. And I and it just gives me and and the kids an opportunity to to learn and and know each other. And I think that that's our basis for our relationships. And it takes five minutes. You know? I think about all the other silly things that we do in our classrooms. Yeah. I'm taking a thousand minutes of instructional time away this year, but I have no regrets. And I think it has has made for the very best year, I've had in in twenty two years. I mean, I know my kids, man. I love my kids. Right. That's incredible. You know? And, well, and for me too, like, when I was talking earlier about walking and talking, and I don't wanna be an icebreaker teacher. If I'm gonna say relationships are important, then I have to make them important. I have to make them a priority, and I do that every single day no matter what. Even if it's a test date, we still take those first five minutes

Speaker 1 and we and we touch we we we connect, you know, we touch base. I love that idea. That's kind of structural piece is something that any place could build upon, which is having emotional structure for students. Not necessarily regimented academics. It's just having an actual plan in place to connect socially with kids beyond just talking to them because, you know, sometimes, you know, you might not one kid might not talk as much. You know? There's there's always, you know, the quieter kids and and stuff like that, and that kind of opens up a way to make that a little more uniform, to everyone.

Speaker 2 I like that a lot. You know? And and, again, I think it's really important that we allow kids to pass. Because, again, this needs to come from a place of commitment, not compliance. And so, you know, I have some kids who pass every single time, but they listen attentively. It's all the other kids sharing. So it's it's really about us are learning each other as a community. I mean, it's pretty dang cool. You have a classroom full of kids clapping because Elijah has he he's he's, a gay young man in my sixth grade class clapping because he has his first date. I mean, that's pretty dang cool. That's awesome. Yeah. I mean, what better way to teach tolerance or just to teach empathy or even honestly,

Speaker 1 like like, teach, like, normalizing failure, any of your any of your soft skills because even though those kids might pass every single time, you know for a fact that they are relating to many of the things that are being said, whether that be positive or negative, and it's helping them kind of cope with either good feelings or bad feelings. And there is no literally not one standard that says anything about emotional intelligence amongst our kids. Even though I think most people would say those are the most important things. And I think that's what most parents would want for their children as well. I mean, that's why would they not? At least I Yeah. Absolutely. Hope that's the case.

Speaker 2 Well, yeah. You know what? And I think about my own kids, man. I just want my kids. I want my own personal kids, my children. I want them to be happy at school. That's what I want first and foremost. I want them to be happy. You know? And I want them to feel like they belong. I want them to feel like they connect they're connected. You know? The the the the content stuff will come, man. I just we we teach kids, and you know that. I just you know, the content's secondary. I mean, we we teach kids with content. We don't teach content to kids. I think we have to reframe.

Speaker 1 I think the the easiest way to understand that is that go to any kindergarten, first grade classroom Yeah. And talk to the kids about, you know, what they're learning and the kids are into it. You'll never get more clarifying questions or just random interest questions from a group of kids when you say, does anyone have any questions? They all raise their hands because they're going nuts because they're they're actually learning and they wanna be there and they're having fun and people naturally want to learn. In my opinion, schooling kills that love, sadly. And the reason why, especially as as a high school as a high school instructors, we run into an issue where it's kind of like they're at the end of the machine. They're they're they're kind of winding down. It's kind of our goal to try to reverse that track.

Speaker 2 Yeah. You know? And it's hard it's hard, you know, because they don't trust anymore. They played the game for too long. And so even even we who are progressive and we try new things out, you know, it takes a long time for the kids to kind of, give us that trust that you know? You know, the year I gave my all my kids a's, they were like, what? Really? And it took them a long time to to get there, because they've been so conditioned, for so many years. But, you know, I don't know. Small steps. We'll we'll make it happen here someday.

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